MemberPostViewed: times
CunningManRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!


Do any former Bethelites remember someone named Rob Carlson (I think his name was spelled like that)? I believe he lived in Wisconsin for some time and was at Bethel during the 80's during the shake-up. He died several years ago, but I was wondering if anyone knew him.
IP: 4gaPFpeKsv7j1MnR
tijkmoRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
On Easter Sundays, and other religious holidays, we would trek on down to St Peter's Basillica and play gospel numbers as the folks filed in to pay their respects to Jesus.
rofl
IP: J7YXYUjs38zG75M3
Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
JW,

Given the time frame you mention, you are doubtless correct. The 119 Columbia Heights Bldg wasn't built until the mid-1970s. I never visited them in that Brownstone apartment. I don't know how it was that they got from there to the 119 Bldg, but I'm sure there is a story there somewhere, although Ed was hightly respected right up until the spring of 1980, when Bethel had its own version of 9/11. Things were never the same at HQ after that.

In fact, I didn't get to know Ed & Betty very well until the late 1970s. We became much closer after we all left. They came out here to Connecticut to visit us in the 1980s, and Ed actually rebaptized me and several others as Christians in the backyard of an XJW couple. We were involved with a little support group at the time, and several of us decided to get rebaptized.

Tom
IP: gQEZi12e4KETLndH by Tom Cabeen: Correct formatting
Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
CM,

I knew Rob. Sorry to hear he passed away. He was a very nice guy, I always thought.

Tom
IP: gQEZi12e4KETLndH
wschroederRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Tom,

I invited my brother to jump in here while all the fun stuff is going on. You will want to contact him personally to find CS. It seems that you and he reached the same point in your spiritual journies. Interesting.....

Warren
IP: 0Ba5OzO+c3C86DP8
BabaYagaRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Bookmarking a great thread, thank you!

(To your good health, Warren.)

IP: vxWinN3t0gUApHlw
TMSRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Randy mentioned this:  "Anyone else have an old-timer friend who was cueing in on '74? Not uncommon. Dating nonsense."

 

Didn't the original Aid to Bible Understanding, A-F mention 1974 in its article titled "Chronology"?  I remember seeing this and wondering if things had changed since the c.1966 Life Everlasting In Freedom with the Sons of God" and its focus on 1975.  Some of us read the "Aid" book cover to cover.  Lol!   

tms

IP: INI6tapkd4SO7wQ5
DogpatchRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

TMS

if i remember it was made freddy who advocated 1974 based on the 2520 yr count somehow. But then again Freddy liked to do the tossed salad. What a character.

Fred Franz (called Freddy by old timers at Bethel, not disrespectfully) was quite an enigma. I think a lot of us admired him, as he was a purist of sorts. He shunned normal social affairs, yet was very sociable. And he would break out and step into the worlds of others at times. They were impressed.

I never did the shower thing, with Freddy or anyone. Never had time for "luxuries" assuming I would want to do such a tacky thing anyway.  :-))

But Freddy disdained the other members, the newer members of the GB at the time. Bethel men were always hung up on position, and keeping the new boys in their place.  Freddy was, surprisingly, warm and quite friendly to the average joes. Sure, if he didn't bore you to death with his monotones and story illustrations, that were actually at times comical in their own right (he could be very funny in a dry sort of way-LOL), he would show his humanity and vulnerability SPADES more than some other members of the GB. He WAS a real person. I think he is the only one I ever respected then that I still respect now, God save the old fart.

new brother Glick

 

 

IP: HtcEwqUI1GKh65WV
watsonRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
When Frederick Franz spoke, people listened.  Even as a kid, I would doze through 4 to 6 days of the convention, and perk right up when "Freddie" stepped up to the platform.  Something in those Franz genes, I guess.
IP: 0WLdA6EyWLBTNkuq
DogpatchRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

So I almost forgot my FREDDY story. Cabeen probably might have seen this, but maybe not, depending on how well developed his BA was at the time.  :-))   Cab, at least you had Gloria to keep you grounded.

Sydlik decided to give the Bethel boys a new dress code, this was 1979? and they were all in the dining room, might have been lunch, don't remember, but big crowd. He says it is proper that we COME TO THE TABLE dressed like we were going to be in company (i.e., dressed UP ).

Now this went over like a lead balloon, not the least with Freddy himself. Normally fairly respectable looking at the breakfast table, the MEAL you did not miss (because it was DISCIPLINE time, BOYS!) , Freddy came down and sat at the table head all 5 mornings that week wearing a T-SHIRT (no other shirt or jacket) saying, "Where in the Hell is McCook, Nebraska?"

ONLY Freddy could do that, no one else. That was cool. 10 points.

Now, obviously this was intended to do three things.

1. amuse himself, goal #1

2. give a subtle message! to the REST of the GB (look, fools, you know I don't play this game of yours)

3. Renew loyalties with his boys, who were disappointed in his lack of quirky adventures of late, especially the somberr, seemingly out-of-character rants, along with Knorr, against the Governing Body arrangement. Politics. Even for purists.

I can't recall how it all worked out, as about that time I quit eating.  :-))

Randy

 

IP: HtcEwqUI1GKh65WV
DogpatchRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Sorry for hogging the space, boys, but I'm on a roll before I burn out and have to finish my 7-week late Journal.

Freddy had a well-developed BA (bad attitude). That may seem like a dangerous thing to have at the house of God, but if you were not stupid you could swing it to your advantage. Kind of like having cigarettes in prison or something.

Clever old timers got their jollies from baiting new boys to expose their BAs before they were mature. Nothing funnier than a new boy faus pas, probably the only entertainment left for some there. :-))

Others delighted in political games, like moi. I'd better not tell the story about getting one ego transferred out of the pressroom into the Service Dept. (LOOKS like a promotion folks, but it is a dead end and sucks!)  OKAY we played the game, but it worked. Some were suspicious.  :-))

The cartoons are drawn by Mark Quakenbush at the time, who worked with us in the pressroom. He was the nephew of Colin Quakenbush (quite the popular family out in the San Fernando Valley). He was a rebel purist and still is. Godspeed, Mark!

Anyway, the following cartoon shows the irony only to a Bethelite.

Son you have eh bad attitude!

The irony is, of course, is the suggestion  that Cal Chyke and Max Larson were more liberal, or had turned liberal.

Hell would freeze over first! THAT was the joke.

Franz like to be arbitrary, but not to the tune of others.

dude!

 

 

IP: HtcEwqUI1GKh65WV
Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate book
Hey Warren,

Thanks for giving Greg the heads up. Give him my number if you don't mind. I will be happy to hear from him.

Tom
IP: 0gmBpacUZYDEalXr
PoztateRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Guido was convinced the end was coming in 1974, not 1975 (A Franz glitch?) Anyone else have an old-timer friend who was cueing in on '74? Not uncommon.

     I think freddy franz did a little mind fart speculation in an article to the effect that 75' marked the end of 6000 years so "A" had to be over by then because the 1000 year reign and the 6000 years couldn't be more than one of those 7000 year "creative days"

  I know my Dad believed it would all be over by 75. He really believed in the 1914 generation theory also. He knew he was never going to die. That didn't happen either and then he died...Twelve years ago.

 

This is a really interesting thread about Bethel and the "good old days"  I can see now why they are trying to downsize Bethel.....It is nothing but a Poztate™ breeding ground...

IP: aLNkcA9nM9A3deQP
DubNoMoRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

** "Just a few minutes ago I was telling Brother Barber how bad I feel...He told me that there's always the resurrection...I would like to thank Brother Barber for his encouraging words." -S. Herd **

That is a gem!  Still LOL.

But, then, this whole thread has been a gem.  Thanks to all for their comments.

---
And the Borg shall straighten thy path and direct thine advance verily into the miasma of malodorous monkey muck ... Hezekiah 19:14 NWT

IP: muZSKj7DSQZMgamQ
NewYork44MRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

One of the best things about this thread is it adds light into various things I heard throught my life. I remember when the story went around about the misscalculation of the 1975 date and that things would be all wrapped up by then.

 

IP: yn9ACd7KHxF2L3hC
still_in74Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

i remember a Bethel bro up here in canada telling me about a time when some bros in NY got caught renting adult films (porn)

I guess once per week the canada branch would tie in over the phone to NY and listen to the breakfast pep talk. Well one morning the GB member (i cant remember who) got up and mentioned how a local store owner had come to bethel and reported that he had been renting out several adult films to men with the bethel address and that he didnt think this was appropriate so he brought it to Bethels attention.

The brother then said that everyone of those movies had better be returned to the store before work started that morning.

I was shocked, i said "can you imagine how they must have felt?" he said to me "can you imagine how they felt when they saw a bethel overseer in the store waiting for them?"

this would have happened in the late 80's early 90's

does anyone remember this?????

IP: ixZXSUWvuH+UYEnD
Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate book
Sorry, faulty editing.
IP: 0gmBpacUZYDEalXr by Tom Cabeen: Correct formatting
by Tom Cabeen: Correct formatting
by Tom Cabeen: Correct formatting
Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate book
Ignore this one, too! On to the next one, the right one!
IP: 0gmBpacUZYDEalXr by Tom Cabeen: Correct formatting
Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate book
Poztate™

I am probably in the minority, but I actually think Freddy Franz actually believed his own predictions. In that way, I think he was much like Russell. Both of them bought into the theory that somehow one could actually calculate the time of Christ's return. (Most Christians for the past two millennia just took Jesus at his word when he said it would be unexpected, like a thief in the night. Only a few like Russell and Franz forged ahead, trying to outsmart him.)

Rutherford, on the other hand, was not deceived IMHO. He was nothing but an opportunist who saw a golden opportunity in Russell's disappointed followers. He stepped right into Russell's shoes and published the seventh and final volume in Russell's series. But the tables got quickly turned when his little scheme landed him in jail. So he fabricated the whole story about captivity, and set out to create an "organization" (the word means a group of people used as a tool, it was used during that time in connection with labor unions), his own little army to send out, primarily to take revenge against the Catholic church for the role they played in having him, a "Judge", imprisoned. That, I think, is where he came up with his whole fabricated story about God needing to "vindicate" his name. No orthodox Christian ever thought that God's name needed vindication. God needs nothing from us, least of all vindication. That was just Rutherford talking about his own need for self-justification and vindication as being a really good guy, even though he had been put in the clink. That is my informed opinion, anyway.

Regarding Bethel being an apostate breeding ground, I think you are right. The Society got way off the WT track during the seventies. It started in the late sixties with NHK's idea to have a Bible dictionary. He thought it would be a big money maker. But producing the Aid book had an unexpected byproduct. It made some of the writers actually think more logically about what JWs were doing and why. I doubt that anyone had ever done that before. The result was big changes like the elder arrangement and the GB. Unfortunately, some of the R&F started thinking, too. Before you know it, people were reading the Bible without the publications, and even Bible commentaries and discovering to their surprise that other people besides WT writers read the Bible, too. And that their guesses about what it means were in many cases a heck of a lot better than the ones they were reading in the WT publications (Remember the article "Figs that Give Pleasure Even to God"?) Obviously, that kind of thing (thinking and reading outside publications) had to be stopped. (In the late 1970s, several of the Brooklyn Service Department staff kept a copy of Barnes' Notes right on their desks.)

Prior to 1980, I had never heard of anyone ever being disfellowshipped for apostasy. It was theoretically possible, but extremely rare, like getting df'd for gluttony or for envy. (Look up the word in your WT index and check out its frequency and use prior to 1980.) That is why Cris Sanchez and Nestor Kuilan were so open when questioned. Why shouldn't they be? It said "READ GOD'S WORD THE HOLY BIBLE DAILY" in big green letters right on the side of our factory building. Who knew they didn't really mean it? So thinking was the problem. Until they either got rid of the thinkers or forced them into self-imposed lobotomies, things could not return to a semblance of normalcy.

Bottom line, any stories you hear about Bethel in the 1970s are atypical. The WTS was never like that before, and it will never be like that again. At least not in our lifetimes.

Best,

Tom
IP: 0gmBpacUZYDEalXr
biff mcflyRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Never heard the porn video story..but how bout this one...happened in '87...I know it's true because the guy was my roommate's first roommate (before me). The guy..whose name shall be withheld..arrived from Oregon riddled with guilt for engaging in some oral olympics with a comely sister at his Bethel going away party. He confessed to my roommate who urged him to talk to the elders..needless to say..he possibly had one of the shortest Bethel careers of all time..back on a plane the next day to Oregon..talk about embarrassment.
IP: 7HBSioUYjjkI6Zz3