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sf  Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!


While I'm at it:

http://members.shaw.ca/theotrip/

sKally

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wschroederRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
The new christian ministry.... mastering Copy/Paste. I think Luke and Matthew would have appreciated your skills when they plagarized Mark.
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sfRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

 

Duly Noted.

sKally

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yesididRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

While I'm at it:

http://members.shaw.ca/theotrip/

sKally

So you think the people reading and contributing to this thread don't know this stuff??????????????????
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DogpatchRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
BTTT
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Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate book
sKally,

You have made two posts recently. One is about the amount of money spent to make the Toronto Bethel a nice place; the other is about a JW couple who made a tour of JW facilities, and posted pictures of their trip, presumably for other JWs to enjoy.

The fact that the WTS has plenty of money to spend on buildings and equipment is nothing but a reflection of the result of any profitable manufacturing and distribution operation. The WTS is a publishing company. That is what they are all about. The vast majority of their resources are directed toward that end, both at headquarters and among the congregations. And when one is manufacturing any item in the millions, every penny of profit on a million of anything means $10,000 in the door. The WTS manufactures many millions of magazines and books every month, and their profits are much, much more than one cent per item. Thanks to unpaid labor at both the manufacturing and distribution end, their total costs per piece are quite low, and their profits quite high. I saw a Dunn & Bradstreet report several years ago that reported over a billion US dollars in annual revenue for the WTS. I don't have any idea where the numbers came from, but I can believe that they are quite high.

I will comment on what I think that means after I comment on your second post. Stan and July Milosevic made a big "theocratic" trip and posted their pictures for everyone to see. You may think I am crazy, but I see in their actions a love story. They are in love with a concept. They believe what the WTS teaches, that soon God will wipe this world clean and replace it with a new order, and Stan and July want to live there with all their friends. To me, this does not reflect badly on Stan and July at all. They believe, and they are living in harmony with their beliefs. They love the WTS, and they want everyone to know it. I admire them for that. I was much the same way when I was a loyal JW. The goodness, deservedness, appropriateness (or the lack of those things) in the object of their love in no way detracts from the beauty of their love.

Therein lies the great thing about love. An old man may have abused himself most of his life. He may be an alcoholic, lacking in moral strength, a drug user. And yet his children may still love him in spite of all that. The purest and highest form of love does not depend upon the loveableness of its object. Therein lies its strength and beauty. This is one of the fundamental teachings of Christianity.

One day, Stan and July may come to see the WTS differently. They may discover something that convinces them without a shadow of a doubt that the rosy pictures painted in the WT pubs are not as true as they once thought. Then they will have some self-examination to do. They will be faced with a choice about how to handle that truth. They may choose to delude themselves, and go on in the organization, just pretending that they believe, but with bitterness and hurt inside for the rest of their lives. Or they may choose to redirect the love they now have for the WTS to something or someone more deserving of their love and loyalty. They will most likely have to deal with embarrassment, shame, anger, the sense of being betrayed, the sense of lost time, wasted lives. But for now, the love with which they love is, I believe, still genuine and beautiful. It is, in fact, the presence of such love in the world that which reassures me of the presence of a source of such a noble quality, a loving God.

In the last book of CS Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia series, The Last Battle, a false god, Tash, wars against the true god, the Emperor. Near the end of the story, one of Tash's loyal servants meets Aslan, the good lion (the Christ figure). The soldier served Tash faithfully and loyally all his life. Only after he "dies" does he learn that his god was evil. He meets Aslan and thanks him for the privilege of meeting him, but understands that he was on the wrong side. Aslan must view him as an enemy and thus kill him. "No", says Aslan, "I accept all the service you rendered to Tash all your life as if it were done to me, for you did it with a pure heart." (I am paraphrasing from memory, as it has been over a decade since I read this book to my now-grown boys as a bedtime story.) This is how I view Stan and July. I am not the judge, of course, but I would like to think this is how God will judge all who love others with a pure heart. Whoever loves is God's child, for He is both the source and example of such pure, unselfish love. It shines through despite our tendency to be selfish and to hurt ourselves and others.

This same factor is at work in the WTS (and all other human endeavors). There are doubtless a few evil people associated with that organization, as there are with just about any group of any size one could name. But I am sure that many if not most of them are, like Stan and July, involved because they believe the WT message and they believe they are doing good. I know I did. Whether through money, work, meeting attendance, etc, they supporting and contributing to something they believe in, to some extent at least. If they believe that God is associated with that organization, why should they not spend some of their time and money to make "God's place" as nice as possible? There could be many noble reasons to spend some of their profits on decent facilities for their volunteer labor. Turning the situation around, if they have money but don't spend it to make the facilities nice, would that make them more righteous? In other words, I separate the motivations of the members from the truthfulness of the message of the Society. They are two separate issues to me.

Should they spend more to help the poor? Undoubtedly! The WTS is very bad about giving to the poor. They don't even help their own very well. My mother gave everything she had to the WTS for sixty years, and spent a decade in the circuit work with my dad. She gave all her material possessions to the WTS. But she did not get back a penny of assistance or support. When her limited funds finally ran out, the local congregation dumped her in a nursing home and called me, her disowned and disfellowshipped son, to help her. I did so gladly, because she is my mother, and I love her. She has dementia and doesn't even know me, but I still love her and consider it a privilege to help her.

When I left the WTS, I had to deal with the same things others did, hurt, anger, loss. But I had to separate the beautiful things that I see in people from the badness we are capable of. I had to learn to love others in spite of what they do to themselves and others. Forgiving them released me from the hurt, and I was able to move on, grow and love even more deeply.

Blessings,

Tom

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compound complexRe: Re: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate book

 

Thank you, Tom.

Firmly believing that God makes all things "pretty" in his own time, I have been endeavoring to apply what you have so correctly expressed; this has been my most recent objective.

That God, who sees the heart, is the judge, and not any short-sighted man, is comforting and puts my mind and heart at ease. Accordingly, there's no need to despair over the fate of all my loved ones still in "the Truth." I will help them (if it is I who is called upon) when the time is right, but there's no need to push, shove or cajole. I did enough of that as a JW (but in a nice way!).

Blessings and peace to you, Gloria and the boys.

CoCo

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sfRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

What the hell...I just thought you boys would enjoy the pix.  I don't need a 'bible study', persay, about how this death trapbook publishingBUSINESS of  a "religion" operates.   

sKally

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Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate book
sKally,

In that case, thanks so much for sharing! I did enjoy seeing the pictures, but what I found most interesting was looking over Stan Milosevic's library of books written by JWs, including some I knew when I was at Bethel, on the link at the bottom of his home page.

The fact that JWs are publishing their own books tells me that the days of WT exclusivity when it comes to defending their faith are over. The time of "one exclusive channel" is (de facto) giving way to JWs thinking about their own faith and publishing on their own. (I guess the Society has been calling them "publishers" all along, so maybe it was inevitable.) This can only lead to more people thinking about what they believe. Once that happens, it is only a matter of time before they see the logical, historical and scriptural contradictions of the WT belief system. (I know at least three of the authors on Stan's list who are no longer JWs.) I'm betting that Stan hasn't read all the books in his library. If he ever does, we might even see a post from him here on JWD before too long...if we can figure out who he is. Come to think of it, he might even be reading this right now! (Hi Stan! Keep reading! Love to July!)

Thanks again,

Tom
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DogpatchRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
bttt
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DogpatchRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Some pics I just found:

Cabeen aces Factory Committee

Cabeen aces factory committee

 

 

Tom and Gloria at Bethel

Tom and his brilliant and sexy wife Gloria!

 

Milan Miller and the boys of pressroom

Milan Miller, former roommate and main press erector for Bethels all over the world in the 70s-80s?

OMG BarneY!

Cabeen letting loose a BIG ONE

Cabeen letting loose a BIG ONE

this picture is named in honor of the guy behind evil Cab.

we won't name the other guy.

Randy

 

 

 

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sparky1Re: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

AK-Jeff,

Marvin Olsen was my first roomate when we were newboys at Watchtower Farm in '74.  He seemed 'zombie-like' even then.   After losing his brother, I think the family 'mantle' of full time service passed to him by default.  He was a nice guy though and would never do anyone any harm. 

Peace

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1914BSRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Hey Tom I have found evidence of a coverup story concerning page 93 of live forever book  I'll keep you posted. 
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Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Thanks BS,

But you should know that I don't own any WT literature except a NWT. I don't know what the live forever book is. Better plan on scanning in a page or portion of a page for me.

Thanks,

Tom
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DogpatchRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
why is this thread so glitchy? is it locked?
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cathykRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Since all you old Bethelites are here, did any of you know a girl named Wendy who worked on the computer systems in the early 80s? 

I showed up at the factory for a tour all by myself, and they dug her up to show me around since there wasn't a regularly scheduled tour at that time.  They knew I wasn't a Witness (a 20-something year old girl in corduroy pants, t-shirt, and corduroy cap kinda gave that away). 

She was a very pretty blonde, who didn't have the canned presentation down pat, so she introduced me to various workers in the different departments and let them all tell me about their jobs.  It was the best tour ever -- I heard a lot more interesting stuff about the workings of the WT factories, and she flirted with all the cute guys.  She did tell me that she was engaged, though.

I also got to talk to a gorgeous guy in the typesetting department who let me in on the secret that they were translating the "Bible Stories" book into modern Greek and who showed me some of his work.  He winked conspiratorially and I could have just melted ... Wouldn't have been any of you fellows, would it?

Ah, to be young again! :-)  At least I managed to find my own Prince Charming not long after that.

Cathy

oldlighthousebooks.blogspot.com

www.oldlighthousebooks.com

 

 

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Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Hi Cathy,

You may be thinking of Wynne Warren, rather than Wendy. The description you gave of her sounds right. She was then engaged to, and later married, a Bethelite named Warren Pake. She was pretty good friends with my wife and I (Gloria worked in the Computer Department for the last couple of years we were there. Wynne was from the midwest, St Louis if I remember right. Later, they left Bethel and moved out West, maybe Arizona, not sure about that. She was a pistol.

As for the cute guy in typesetting, I have no idea. I don't remember any cute guys at all up there. :-) But did you notice any of the cute guys in the Pressroom?

Smiling as I write this,

Tom
IP: gQEZi12e4KETLndH by Tom Cabeen: Correct formatting
by Tom Cabeen: Correct formatting
QuandryRe: Re: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

My mother gave everything she had to the WTS for sixty years, and spent a decade in the circuit work with my dad. She gave all her material possessions to the WTS. But she did not get back a penny of assistance or support. When her limited funds finally ran out, the local congregation dumped her in a nursing home and called me, her disowned and disfellowshipped son, to help her.

Tom-

One of the first posts I ever read on this forum was from a disfellowshipped woman who was told by the congregation that she was responsible for caring for her aged mother after being shunned for so many years her mother was a virtual stranger to her. Her mother had dementia, so there could be no relationship to resume, leaving the woman very bitter, and deservedly so.

I also was sincere in my worship. I wanted it all to be true so badly.....but the cruelty of separating families....

I am sorry this happened to you.

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cathykRe: Re: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Hi Cathy,

You may be thinking of Wynne Warren, rather than Wendy. The description you gave of her sounds right. She was then engaged to, and later married, a Bethelite named Warren Pake. She was pretty good friends with my wife and I (Gloria worked in the Computer Department for the last couple of years we were there. Wynne was from the midwest, St Louis if I remember right. Later, they left Bethel and moved out West, maybe Arizona, not sure about that. She was a pistol.

As for the cute guy in typesetting, I have no idea. I don't remember any cute guys at all up there. :-) But did you notice any of the cute guys in the Pressroom?

Smiling as I write this,

Tom
Oh my goodness, I do believe that's her!  I think I remember her telling me she was from St. Louis (or somewhere in Missouri).  I often wonder how she's doing.  She was SO much fun to go on that tour with!  She didn't treat me in a standoffish manner, which I sometimes got from other Witnesses.
 
She was certainly a lot different from the Bethel home tour guide I got later on that same year.  That woman was like a robot.  You could almost see the script unrolling, pauses and all.  It was so "isn't this a grand prospect"-ish.
 
Hey, there were cute guys all over the place there -- I couldn't believe it.   Yes, the pressroom was definitely a good place to rest one's eyes, so you were probably there at the time.  You and Randy and the other fellas have all held up nicely over the years, too.  Personally I think guys look better when they're older -- including my own husband, who is quite distinguished these days.
 
Another story (yes, I suppose I was obsessed about these things back then):  I still remember one time when a young fellow and an older man came to my house in Woodhaven in the late 1970s (I had acquaintances in the Rockaway Unit, BTW).  Anyway, my jaw must've dropped, or I must've had some comically lovestruck expression on my face, because the older guy almost started to snicker.  Too bad they weren't ALL like that ... I suppose that was fortunate in some ways. :-)
 
Cathy
 
 
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BabaYagaRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Tom's quote:

"And yet his children may still love him in spite of all that. The purest and highest form of love does not depend upon the loveableness of its object. Therein lies its strength and beauty."

Beautifully said. Thank you for that. Also loved the Narnia "pure heart" bit!

Love,
Baba.
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