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DogpatchRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!


shameless Cab plug:

As for the cute guy in typesetting, I have no idea. I don't remember any cute guys at all up there. :-) But did you notice any of the cute guys in the Pressroom?

of course. office jobs were looked down upon by us pressroom grunts (and you KNOW the reverse was true!). We enjoyed bein kinda burly.

Office people did not work as hard as we did. Luckily, it showed back then.

We could barely get enough to eat, I was 185 pounds and not much fat, Cabeen workin my damn ass off all day and night! Or was it Tom Miles? Oh, my. We won't go there.

Randy

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FatfreekRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Thanks Randy and Tom and all of you others for such a great share.

I left the org in 1977 before the sh!t hit the fan a few years later.  I didn't know that till I started browsing here some three years ago. Yes, those were the pre-internet days.

I was aware of some of the Bethel problems in the late 50's from someone who worked there for nearly two years till a medical problem forced him to leave. After voicing my aspirations to this then-best friend, this veteran cautioned, "no, Lenny, you don't want to go there".

Ironically, he's the other grandfather of my grandchildren whom I've never seen face to face, or played with, or hugged.

Based partly on this thread, I hope my two grandsons ask this other granddad about his Bethel experiences.  I hope that this current elder gives them similar advice to what he gave me more than 50 years ago. If not, and when they get old enough and still aspire to working at Bethel (despite their current worker purge) I can see that such an experience could help open their eyes -- turning into more of a negative than a positive for them.

Len Miller
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Tom CabeenWarren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Quandry,

Thanks so much for your kind words. You write "One of the first posts I ever read on this forum was from a disfellowshipped woman who was told by the congregation that she was responsible for caring for her aged mother after being shunned for so many years her mother was a virtual stranger to her. Her mother had dementia, so there could be no relationship to resume, leaving the woman very bitter, and deservedly so."

I have almost the exact same situation, but I do not share her bitterness. I do have sadness for what we and she missed. But no bitterness. My release came as a result of forgiving her and all the people who wittingly or unwittingly (I can't figure out which) created this horrible situation. I had to forgive in order to move on. That does not mean that they won, if we forgive. We are the ones who win, for we are released from the pain when we forgive. Otherwise, we force ourselves to live the hurt again and again, on and on, like a person who is badly cut in a robbery, and then every day she cuts the wound open again, keeping the memory of the robbery alive and experiencing the pain over and over again. Meanwhile, the robber goes his merry way, spending her hard earned cash easily and never giving her a second thought.

I do not know all the things that motivated my mom to shun me, but I know that she loved me. It was probably harder for her to shun me than it was for me to be shunned. So I have forgiven all, and now I love her without guilt and without pain.

Once again, thanks for caring.

Tom
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wschroederRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
TOM says: You may be thinking of Wynne Warren, rather than Wendy. The description you gave of her sounds right. She was then engaged to, and later married, a Bethelite named Warren Pake. She was pretty good friends with my wife and I (Gloria worked in the Computer Department for the last couple of years we were there. Wynne was from the midwest, St Louis if I remember right. Later, they left Bethel and moved out West, maybe Arizona, not sure about that. She was a pistol.


Wynne Warren.... Ummm!!

Yes, she was from St. Louis. I knew her before we arrived at Bethel... she some months before me. We were supposed to meet for a double date set up by her roommate, the daughter of the inventor and founder of the Rug Doctor business. I couldn't make it, so my pioneer roommate and another flunky made the appointment. It was a disaster... from the girls' point of view. My pioneer partner became totally enamored with her. He thought he was the smartest person in the world, and was relentless in his efforts to show off how big of a peanut he was. She was a tall, young, intelligent woman, and a manager at IBM. She had little patience for his chauvinism and arrogance, and she generally got the upper hand of their cajones competition which went on for a while. They never dated again. Wynne and I got along fine but never actually made another time to date. We lived 70 miles apart.

It didn't matter much to try again, both Wynne and myself soon got our invites to Bethel, and it was her St. Louis roommate that made all the moves for my attention from that point.

She married Warren Pake.... a really nice guy as I remember him. I always wondered what their relationship was really like. She was very smart but could also be mean about it. I often wondered if he was really up to the task. They left Bethel before me as I remember and I only recall her as unhappy at the end. Anyway, I wish the best for them... wherever they landed.

Tom, you mentioned Arizona. You know, the brother that came in with his family (wife, kids and all) to ensure that the new IBM 370's went and stayed online was from IBM in Arizona. I wonder if she took a job back at IBM with this connection now well established?

Warren




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Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate book
Hi Warren,

Have no idea where the Pakes ended up. I lost touch with them when we left Bethel. I heard some news about them several years ago through Jennifer Treece, (a long-time friend and my wife on "All Scripture is Beneficial", a radio show we made during the 70s). Jen and her brother Jim, who was also at Bethel, were from California. I think Jim ran the hand bindery, as I recall. Jen was also a dear friend of Wynne's.

Tom
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cathykRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

All I remember is that Wynne was funny, smart, and never ONCE in the time she had me as her charge did she try to "witness" to me.  I was very grateful.  I also remembered thinking at the time that she would have been a great friend to have.

Bethel should have tried to arrange all their tours the same way.  Then again, it was the '80s, and all you fire-breathin' 'postates were trying to take things over, so I guess they needed to be careful.

An odd side question:  I did a quick Google search on her husband's name.  Did he have a well-known physicist as his Dad?  George Pake had four sons, one of whom is Warren Pake.  George P. was a physicist who was a pioneer in computing.

Was Warren a JW all his life, or a convert?

Cathy

oldlighthousebooks.blogspot.com

www.oldlighthousebooks.com

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GamalielRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
I don't know anything about the Pakes, except that I was invited to the wedding, and I calligraphed the invitation for them. (I just ran across it last week.)

I did like Wynne, and considered her a pretty good friend. Her intelligence was a breath of fresh air. She could laugh about things (and make fun of things) that JWs weren't supposed to, and not feel guilty about it. My roommate Randy M knew her from the Computer Dept, so the subject of conversation very often ran towards the ludicrous methods of trying to run a Computer Department with a decision-making process that let Bethel seniority win out over computer experience (and common sense).

Greg
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DogpatchRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Cab sez,

I do not share her bitterness. I do have sadness for what we and she missed. But no bitterness. My release came as a result of forgiving her and all the people who wittingly or unwittingly (I can't figure out which) created this horrible situation. I had to forgive in order to move on. That does not mean that they won, if we forgive.

That's a big reason Cab is still a good friend of mine after 28 years.

You have to see life as half-full or better, IMO. Don't allow others to poison the well, life is too short and its gone. Whatever you believe the future will hold: heaven, earth, or nothing... (well maybe excluding reincarnation), this is all you gots for here, folks. One run and that's it.  Game over.

Anger, fear, resentment, guilt. Poisons that control us if we let them.

If someone were to make a caricature of how they perceive us, what would they imagine? An uptight, anal, insecure mess of a soul? Or someone who is in touch with all sides of themselves and knows how to make the best of what they have and enjoy life? That is what I learned form Cab. Not an easy lesson for me.

My timeless caricature on Cabeen would be him and Gloria enjoying that dinner with wine in 34 Orange with the air conditioning on, making fun of Harold Dies. Or something like that. :-))

Randy

 

 

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DogpatchRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

OK CAB you would be proud of me. Or maybe not when you see the naked pictures of you and Gloria in the new Free Minds Journal!

Just kidding.

Anyway, the west coast pressroom has finished its run of apostate literature and the new Journal is now out:

Free Minds Journal

for anyone who is not on our list, you can get a free sample but you need to send either a SASE with 2 ounce postage and at least 6X9 size to:

Free Minds Inc.

PO Box 3818

Manhattan Beach CA 90266

or a couple of bucks for overseas postage.

It has a condensation of the "best of" this thread as well as the recent changes. I only have 75 left tho, so git yer new releases now!  :-))

Randy

PS You might recognize our fellow member (or ex-member) from Canada on the cover, with Carey Barber. SUCH a good shot!

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QuandryRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Anger, fear, resentment, guilt. Poisons that control us if we let them.

Good advice. I will try to take it.

I let them have two years of my life, after they df'd my beautiful, never been in trouble before, sixteen year old daughter, berating and humiliating her, and accusing her of something she did not do, then calling her a liar. But the final straw was when they made her read a scripture that she was filth in God's eyes, and would burn in the fire with the devil and his angels. Then the "Spiritual Shepherd" announced, "You are disfellowshipped, and if you are still disfellowshipped when Armageddon comes, you can take some comfort in knowing that Jehovah can read hearts."

Ah, yes, a heaping helping of bitterness for me and her dad. Did you know that you can have shingles all over your back and not even be aware of it for weeks even though it causes alot of pain?

We are better now, and some of the thanks goes to this forum, and kind ones on it who offer good advice.

IP: ZKet2ZOGdwKj3qmA
DogpatchRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Quandry says,

I let them have two years of my life, after they df'd my beautiful, never been in trouble before, sixteen year old daughter, berating and humiliating her, and accusing her of something she did not do, then calling her a liar. But the final straw was when they made her read a scripture that she was filth in God's eyes, and would burn in the fire with the devil and his angels. Then the "Spiritual Shepherd" announced, "You are disfellowshipped, and if you are still disfellowshipped when Armageddon comes, you can take some comfort in knowing that Jehovah can read hearts."

They did this to my sister, while my brother-in-law watched them do it. I wish I was there, it made me so pissed off.

The parting blow on their part is an intended, final act of debasing you! Get you in a meeting and degrade you in "public."

They want to terminate their dealing with you by creating a final image, an evil image, that they can write you off with in their minds. It is one of DEFEAT, EMBARRASSMENT, and FEAR, laced withv GUILT. Armed with this image, they never havew to even think about you again. Like a thought-terminating cliche' , only a thought-terminating IMAGE of you.

 Leave them with a more shocking image: one of a happy, healing person who has a long way to go, but is now free.

Randy

 

IP: HtcEwqUI1GKh65WV
Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate book
Oh, no, Watters! You've done it again!! You've gone and made me remember a story about Harold Dies...

When I was a new boy, green as grass, I was assigned to the King's County Congregation (the "other one" that met in the Bethel Kingdom Hall besides the Brooklyn Heights congregation). On one particularly hot and sultry summer night at the end of the service meeting the Congregation Servant (Harold Dies) stood up to make an announcement. His face was serious and we all knew that what was coming would not be pleasant. He looked around, slowly opened a large manila envelope, pulled some materials from it, and laid them on the podium. He picked up a poster and held it up for all to see. It had a drawing of a rather obscure cartoon character and the words "Dick Dastardly" under it. It also had Harold's name in large letters at the bottom. I had seen the ads on the back of the Cheerios boxes at breakfast. You could send in maybe a buck and a few box tops, fill out a form and get a personalized poster, membership card, and some other junk, possibly a decoder ring and some other stuff like that.

Harold explained the terrible act that had been committed by some...dare I use the word..."dastardly" Bethelite. Someone had evidently filled out his name on the form and now he, Harold Dies, Congregation Servant had his own name--imagine that--on a Dick Dastardly poster! He got out a dictionary and read the definition of "dastardly" to the congregation and followed it up with a mini-service talk about how terrible it is to imply that someone was a fan of someone named Dick Dastardly! He spoke of the need for respect for Jehovah and his Servants. On and on it went. The outrage! The shame!

I was seated in about the middle of the Hall, and as I listened, I could hear sounds a row or two behind me: the unmistakable sound of suppressed laughter, punctuated by the very slight choking sounds made by someone who was on the verge of losing control. As the talk went on, the sounds began spreading. I was terrified that I might be the one who would lose control. If I did, who knows what punishment might be in store for me? I bit my lip and put my head down, as if in silent prayer for the repentance of the beastly cads who would do such a thing.

I could never figure out why a guy like Harold, in charge of something having to do with the Society's finances, would apparently be so dense as to not realize that if he had just thrown the stuff away as soon as he got it, the guy(s) who sent it would never have even known whether or not he got it. But as it was, he maximized their investment. Doubtless few Bethelites in history ever got so much entertainment out of one dollar. Thank you, Harold!

Ah, the good old days...

Tom
IP: MDjOJa7kXQmE9Bka by Tom Cabeen: Correct formatting
by Tom Cabeen: Correct formatting
GamalielRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
This can never top Tom's "Dick & Harold" story, but it reminded me of my own cereal boxtop story, however lame.

In 1980 everyone at my table knew I was leaving to get married. Betty CrockerTM was offering free silverware sets in exchange for box top points from GM cereal boxes. The idea wasn't new, of course, as we all knew that there were other Bethel couples who would surreptitiously rip the tops off several boxes during the final prayer. The competition was fierce, but my table got up a small task force for a few days, and left me with enough Betty CrockerTM points to get 8 full place settings, along with various and sundry steak knives, soup spoons, serving spoons, etc. Enough for a 40-pound box of high quality (stainless steel) silverware, all delivered to 124 Columbia Heights. Betty CrockerTM had a "one-offer-per-family" rule, which I worried would be invoked against me, since we all had the same building address.

Within a couple weeks I recall a related breakfast announcement about being more careful when tearing off the cereal boxtops so that the packages could be re-used to consolidate the partially empty packages.

(Some [un]settling of contents may have occurred during shipping and handling -- not to mention fighting over boxtops with Sister ...[so-and-so]...)

Greg
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DogpatchRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

cab sez,

I could never figure out why a guy like Harold, in charge of something having to do with the Society's finances, would apparently be so dense as to not realize that if he had just thrown the stuff away as soon as he got it, the guy(s) who sent it would never have even known whether or not he got it. But as it was, he maximized their investment. Doubtless few Bethelites in history ever got so much entertainment out of one dollar.

Former Circuit/District Overseer Floyd Kite used to tell us, "Half of us are here to test the other half."

I made sure I was in the right half. No one be runnin tests on me, fool!

Cab, I just had this  laughter of yours in the back of my head, and the only text that was attached to it after 30 years was "Harold Dies." I knew it was worth something! Couldn't remember.  Somewhere in my Quak's Bethel scrapbook there is a Harold Dies cartoon, "waerin' ties, makin fun of Harold Dies" or something. I think the demons have hid it somewhere, they always pull this on me!

On the most efficient use of yer $14 at Bethel, pretty cool. That's a good topic: how Bethelites save $$$. C/mon Greg, Warren, Barb, what is yer best $$$ story? Don't have one myself offhand.

Randy

 

 

IP: HtcEwqUI1GKh65WV
Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Ok, here is another HD story which Gloria reminded me of. I had completely forgotten it.

Rick Hudson was a very funny guy who set at our table. He worked in composition. He was prematurely bald on top, but had plenty of hair on the sides. Ricky was always trying to do something funny. One day he went to the barber for a haircut and on a whim asked the barber to style his hair like Bozo the Clown. The barber did it, making the hair stick out over his ears on the sides. He went back to his department, expecting all the guys to say "Hey Bozo", but instead, they said, "Harold Dies!" Needless to say, Ricky quickly combed it back normal.

Tom
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wschroederRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
" On the most efficient use of yer $14 at Bethel, pretty cool. That's a good topic: how Bethelites save $$$. C/mon Greg, Warren, Barb, what is yer best $$$ story? Don't have one myself offhand.

Randy "

Greg and I have a family history and not much changed when he reached Bethel. Greg still has all his Bethel allowance money to this day!!! Just ask him... it's how he put his kids through college :-)

I tried my damn best to spend mine the first day. A half-gallon of Breyers Strawberry Ice Cream, and a Pint of Haagen-Danz Rum Raisin, from the commissary. I could do both in one sitting. Then off to the deli to find a couple of the most expensive foreign beers I might stumble upon. Fortunately, on payday, you didn't have to feel as guilty about not sharing with your roommate(s) because we were all doing the same thing.... hedonists that we were.

Warren
IP: W7VGJ8MnDD5OZ/+E
GamalielRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Randy,

You asked for some of the money management tricks for living at Bethel on the 50-cent-per-day allowance. (We got our subway tokens separately to get up to our respective assigned congregations. But tokens were only something like 25 or 35 cents back then.)

Funny how I never even noticed how poor I was. They gave me 4 years seniority for pioneering right off the bat and I guess I thought that was the primary medium of exchange.

Was it Drew Wasco who stamped people's names on the cover of a deluxe NWT for a few bucks?

There was sometimes a small "green handshake" when you gave a public talk in another congo. I never got much more than travel expenses, but never thought to turn it down, either.

For a car to use, I started a Bible study with a nice family in the Bronx, and borrowed theirs a couple of times.

Some bros would use the photography equipment and the darkroom on off-hours to handle wedding photography, enlargements, etc. I never thought that was right at the time. But I know there were a lot of money-making opportunities, especially for construction trades.

One thing that worked for me was to invite my brother Warren to sell all his belongings (including part of his business that went for several thousand as I recall) and come on up and "share" in the good work going on at Bethel. After that, I got all the Breyer's ice cream pints (from the commissary) that a young guy could hope for.

Greg
IP: FzBjwoF/S1GMs6es by Gamaliel: Correct formatting
by Gamaliel: Correct formatting
Tom CabeenWarren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate book
OK Randy, about money...

I was one of those (evidently in the minority) who actually got along on what the Society gave Bethelites. Shortly after I came to Bethel, my parents went into the Circuit work, so they had nothing to send. Later, after we got married, Gloria's folks also didn't have any extra cash. Maybe two or three times they sent us $10. Also, being the obedient type, I didn't G-job, except for one time, which I will now tell you about.

My roommate (and best friend at the time) was Steve White, overseer of the Electric Shop in the factory. He got a job installing wiring a Kingdom Hall in the Bronx for A/C. (It is still there. You can see it if you look up when you get onto the Cross Bronx Expressway traveling south on I-95.) It was summer, of course, and it was hot. He supplied the brains, I supplied the grunt work. We worked our butts off for a very long weekend on the project, and made $250, a small fortune to a Bethelite in the late 1960s.

We hadn't been paid for the job yet, when Steve decided he had to run to Manhattan to pick up something for the electric shop from an electrical supply company there, rather than submit a requisition and wait for Purchasing to deliver the thing. So he took one of the Society's cars and went to lower Manhattan. He couldn't find a place to park, and he was "only going to be a minute or two", so he took the chance and double parked with the flashers on. Of course, the ever-vigilant New York's Finest ticketed him and had his car towed away. The rest of the day and night was a nightmare that did not end until, like the unforgiving slave of Jesus parable, Steve had "paid the very last penny." Getting the Society's car back, including the ticket, towing fee and parking charge on the DOT towaway lot cost him exactly $250.

That was my first and last G-job, as I was too busy with other "legitimate" Society work. But I remember many months when Gloria and I had less than a dollar to our name by then end of the month.

Tom

PS for the uninitiated, the G in G-job means "Government". I am not sure where that came from, but Richard Wheelock told me that. I would be interested in how outside work got that name.
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GamalielRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Tom,

On the origin of "G-Job" I don't know the true origin but the following looks about right:

I'm picking and choosing from someone's comment on another site/forum: http://www.waywordradio.org/discussion/episodes/g-job/page-1/post-261/

"I worked as a contractor on many military and government projects and when government projects had “deep pockets,” there were always more workers than needed on a job. Many workers had lots of time on their hands and so would pursue their own personal projects or fabricate things related to their particular area of expertise (electronics for example). When anyone referred to these projects it was called a “G Job” which was short for “Government Job”, a sort of cross between a cynical remark and a code word for those who didn’t know any better such as a new “green” boss or a family member or friend. I suspect that this phrase was more common in the 50s to 70s when a lot of government money was available..."

The above idea seems pretty reasonable, but maybe there's another angle on it, already implied. Government jobs are notoriously the most easily "abused" jobs. "G-men" always had a lot of freedom to act like they weren't really on the job. When you want to get a fellow politician in trouble you can always find out that they once picked up their son from soccer in a company car, or found some busy-work for the maintenance men by having them work on the boss's personal house or boat. Government jobs are often so poorly managed and supervised that people can pull off multiple full-time salaries. Lawyers for school systems in NY & LI have been recently caught billing up to 5 simultaneous full-time salaries from multiple school systems and had managed to hide it for many years.

The problem with all of the above is that the actual "Government Job" is what allows for outside jobs. You are asked to assume that the phrase later got tacked on to the outside job only, and not the actual primary job.

Greg
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DogpatchRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

The commissary!!  Totally forgot about that, the den of sin! Breyers and pecan pies. Only possible through the donations of kind Black people, who had all the money and we had none, so they kept us happy.

I was, in effect, Black for 6 years, a total honkie in East New York (Linwood Congregation). Used to get harassed, robbed and have bottles thrown at us going htrough the projects late at night. Had to take the #2 train to New Lots (end of the road!) often alone (elder crap).

One night I was walking through and several 13-yr olds pulled a gun on me (most crime was in that age range, as they couldn't be prosecuted) and I gave them $10 (hmmm.. Breyers for Friday, my one movie a month, and several pieces of pizza, what was the name of the pizza place by Cadman Plaza? Anyway they got my $10 watch, too. My clothes were a joke, I used to wear this stupid Light-colored suit because I had no money or style.  :-))

One of the kids came up to me just as they were leaving and APOLOGIZED for taking my money, as he went to church! I almost died laughing (later, of course).

 Warren sez,

Greg and I have a family history and not much changed when he reached Bethel. Greg still has all his Bethel allowance money to this day!!! Just ask him... it's how he put his kids through college :-)

I hope you guys aren't still wearing hand-me-downs, sick!  :-))

R

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