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DogpatchRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!


Greg sez,

Funny how I never even noticed how poor I was. They gave me 4 years seniority for pioneering right off the bat and I guess I thought that was the primary medium of exchange.

worth about $5 adjusted.

R

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FatfreekRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

PS for the uninitiated, the G in G-job means "Government". I am not sure where that came from, but Richard Wheelock told me that. I would be interested in how outside work got that name.

That brings back memories.  In the late 50's when I was cutting my teeth as a machinist apprentice I noticed one of the journeymen working a strange shape in the vertical milling machine. Always curious, I approached him and asked what it was.  He said, "it's a government job", and said no more. Being a novice I sensed I was treading on sacred ground.

My bench buddy saw the whole thing and when I returned to work he smiled, catching my puzzled look.  He came over and whispered, "government is code for us, young man. We're members of the government, aren't we? -- as he winked.

Len


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wschroederRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
"...and several pieces of pizza, what was the name of the pizza place by Cadman Plaza?"

FASCATI's

Pizza by the slice... New York's cheapest health food.

Oh.... and then there was PIZZA NIGHT!!! One event more dangerous than the cereal boxtop sprints. All extremities, especially fingers, had to be tucked in tightly and within sight.

I was lucky enough to have Steve Lupo as my roommate. Our 4 man room had enough for an army and we didn't have to suffer the humiliation of those other beggars (baggers) in the dining rooms.

Warren
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gymbobRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

 I was in Kings County Cong. with Harold Dies and Jim Petrie back in the 70's. We would take Peach's old chevy van to the meetings out in Bay Ridge Brooklyn (that's where they sent the cong. after it no longer met at the bethel hall) and he would get a buck from everybody who was riding along since that's what the round trip subway fare was back then, and nobody wanted to take the train if you could just hitch a ride. I swear that guy would pile as many bethelites as he could in that van and come away with some serious $$ for each meeting!   

                                Bob 

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Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate book
Hey Bob,

Your post reminded me of that old van of Petrie's. I had forgotten all about it. One weekend Gloria and I borrowed it so that we and a couple of Pressroom guys could visit some former Bethelite friends who lived in Monroe, CT. It was about 50 degrees F on Friday night and raining as we slogged our way through rush hour traffic. A severe cold front was following us as we drove up, so it kept getting colder and colder as we drove. By the time we got to Monroe, maybe two hours later, it was below freezing and snowing. By midnight, the temperature had dropped to about 10 degrees F, where it stayed all weekend. We had a wonderful visit with our friends (we never went to meetings when we were on a "vacation" weekend).

On Sunday evening, as we were getting ready to return home, I went out to start the van and warm it up. To my dismay, I discovered that the darned van was frozen solid! Not only wouldn't the engine even turn over, the van wouldn't even roll! My friend Steve had to push the van out of the parking spot with his new truck. He pushed me down the frozen back road he lived on. I had put it in gear and was going to let the clutch out to start the motor. The first couple of times, the back wheels just skidded-they wouldn't even turn when I let the clutch out, it was so frozen. Finally, it started.

I let it run as we loaded up the stuff in the van. On the way home, we noticed that not only did the van not have a heater, it had more holes in the front of it than a Swiss cheese. It had warmed up outside to about 20 degrees F, but it seemed colder than that inside the van, not to mention that the windows kept fogging up something terrible, since we had no defroster. I had asked them to try to hold their breath until we got back to Brooklyn, so I could see through the windshield, but everyone inside kept stubbornly insisting that they had to breathe. ;-)

Good thing the traffic was heavy enough that we did not have to drive very fast. But it was a long ride home, and we were all half frozen by the time we got back to Bethel. It's funny now, but I had some choice words the next day for Peach for not telling me that the van had no heater.

Ah, the good old days, when a dollar was a dollar--and that was all we had!

Tom
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DogpatchRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

LOL Peach's van... can't remember if we did "beer runs" to Jersey in that one or not, but we always found a car. Beer was too pricey for a Bethelite in Brooklyn Heights!

Housekeepers winked at the case of beer in the closet.  :-))

AND, believe it or not, I had ordered "Barnes Notes" through the Bethel commissary? or requisitioned it, or whatever we did, and it arrived, placed on my bed FACE UP by the housekeeper, on the very same day they announced that Barne's Notes were banned! Never had a phone call on that one. I did live across the hall from Harley Miller, though, and our housekeepers were carefully screened for being idiots about what they see. LOL LOL Brooke!

I guess they figured the factory boys couldn't put it all together in our heads anyway. Plus we were too busy carousing. Guess we had the last laugh.

R

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GamalielRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
How did they ever get so paranoid that a Bible commentary was outlawed? What would be next, keeping average Bethelites out of the Bethel library??

I forgot the guy's name on 1-8. I thought he worked for Wheelock or Songer. I think he was the same one who nearly got himself ousted for growing a beard. We requisitioned our commentaries through him at excellent prices. Got Barnes. Got Matthew Henry 3 vols. Got a Hebrew-English Interlinear of the OT in 3 vols. And then his beard threatened to ruin the whole thing for everyone. :{>

All this fuss about commentaries. Meanwhile Bert Schroeder loaned me his Barnes commentaries, along with a lot of other commentaries and references, any time I wanted right up until my last week at Bethel in 1980. He even recommended Barnes as one of the best. Even Stan Milosevic's theocratic library (someone gave a link previously) has a lot of things in it that would have raised eyebrows in 80 and 81. I wonder what the stance is now on such things.

And after someone like GStafford or RFuruli starts seeing the inevitable, what do JWs do with their once-theocratic publications? (RFuruli still has a couple years to go. I think he's already working on his next book, "Oslo Chronology, Plan B", which supports the 2,520 years by trying to poke holes in the accepted secular chronology which claims "World War I" started in 1914. He will show that, even if you accept 539 (and therefore 587 as pivotal), "World War I" may have actually started in 1934, but that several mistaken and/or conspiratorial encyclopedia and calendar publishers have managed to change times and seasons on us.)

Greg
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wunce_wuzRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
I forgot the guy's name on 1-8. I thought he worked for Wheelock or Songer. I think he was the same one who nearly got himself ousted for growing a beard. We requisitioned our commentaries through him at excellent prices. Got Barnes. Got Matthew Henry 3 vols. Got a Hebrew-English Interlinear of the OT in 3 vols. And then his beard threatened to ruin the whole thing for everyone. :{>
I think his name was Barry Smith? After the beard incident he was exiled to the garage... out of sight...
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VM44Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

"Barnes Notes" were banned?

Why would they ban those?

Were the "Barnes Notes" in the Bethel library?

I bet if Fred Franz ordered "Barnes Notes" they wouldn't have banned them!

IP: TVrwYSKIfA9n4heV
gymbobRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Tom~

  Good story! Petrie's van was a classic! We would take it out to Fire Island back in 70's and watch all the Brooklyn girls wear high heels to the beach (that "disco look" was so big in Brooklyn then, everybody looked like they were in Saturday Night Fever).

  Some regulars in the van on meeting night were.....Harold Dies, Judy Martin, Mark Quazell (sp?), Rueben Barraza and his sister Anita, Peter Coconis, Buster Hicks (yes, that was his real name), Tim Smith, John Hill, John Shirey.

  The first time I ever got drunk was in that van!

  We were helping a guy in our cong. move named Nick Tramentano, with that van. We were drinking beer all day long, and after we finally get the last box in the house Nick puts out this bottle of Whiskey like he's going to toast his new house or something...well we all took a couple shots. The next thing I remember, i'm outside in the snow blowing chunks on the back of that van!

  Jim put me in the van and we headed back to bethel. This was on a Saturday night. The next thing I remember, I'm waking up in my bed on Sunday afternoon about 3pm and I haven't got a clue how or when I got there.       BB

 

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DogpatchRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

For those of you who haven't heard the SERIOUS side of this story:

Cris and Norma Sanchez, former Bethel Spanish translators testimony of how they were treated at Watchtower headquarters in 1979.  part 1   part 2   (RealMedia format, free player)

Randall Watters and Robert Sullivan, What Happened at the Watchtower Headquarters in the Spring of 1980?  part 1   part 2   (RealMedia format, free player)

from MEDIA page: http://www.freeminds.org/media/media.htm

If anyone has thefull lecture of Sam Herd making a fool of himself on the 2005 talk, let me know, as I want others to be blessed by it online. :-))

Randy

partial is up at:http://www.freeminds.org/media/SamHerd.mp3

 

 

 

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wschroederRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
"Barnes Notes" were banned? .... Why would they ban those? ... Were the "Barnes Notes" in the Bethel library?"

As I remember, the first sermons to the "family" were the determination that apostates (or at least "the apostates") were avid readers of bible commentaries. Of course, these were not written by the FDS, and not approved and published by our organizational mother feeding us at the proper time, and were therefore considered part of false religion. You can take it from there to what extent they would and did carry such reasoning.

The Writing Dept library in 124 used to be open to Bethelites and had a wealth of old books, including Russell and WT originals, and the soon to be scorned commentaries. When the big hammer fell in 1980 the library was closed and moved from 124 down the hill to the 30 offices. It was Writing Dept access only after that.

When Adams and Booth questioned me in my first inquisition, they questioned whether I read commentaries, and I replied yes. They then asked where I got them. Although I had my own small collection by that time, I did not reveal it and I told them that I had found and read them in the 124 library... which was true to some small extent. It was Ciro Alicino that still remained a good source of "contraband" books for me for a few more months.... wrapped in brown paper.

Warren
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wschroederRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
"Some regulars in the van on meeting night were.....Harold Dies, Judy Martin, Mark Quazell (sp?), Rueben Barraza and his sister Anita, Peter Coconis, Buster Hicks (yes, that was his real name), Tim Smith, John Hill, John Shirey."


Mark Questel, my first roommate in Bethel when I landed in 79. He worked in the Service Dept and had already heard of my arrival and made sure I was in his 4-man Towers room. I didn't even know him, but his parents and my parents were friends in St. Louis, and things were arranged without my knowledge. Still didn't keep me out a job in the bindery. He got married about a year later and stayed with his wife.

Warren

IP: W7VGJ8MnDD5OZ/+E
crazyblondebRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

This is a question from "now"...........anyone know mark shepard at bethel???

shelley

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DogpatchRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Warren says,

It was Ciro Alicino that still remained a good source of "contraband" books for me for a few more months.... wrapped in brown paper.

That was the one! Ciro was the connection, the antitypical Jeremy Piven (Entourage) that got me ma Barnes NOTES (blasted DEVIL book, it was!)

What ever happened to Ciro?? EVERYONE knew him.

Except me.

R

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VM44Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
It was Writing Dept access only after that.

That sounds bad.

I know Brooklyn Bethel had more than one library. (three is the number I believe)

 Are they all closed to the average Bethelite?


 

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Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Hey Randy,

Ciro is still there, to my knowledge. His biggest claim to fame was his being the Society's liaison with the UN on the NGO debacle. I think his name was on the paperwork. He married Lolly Knocke (not positive about spelling; pronounced ku NO kee), a very sweet young lady who came to Bethel about the same time as my wife and is either a month younger or a month older, don't remember. Gloria and I knew Lolly pretty well and did some things with her before they were married, less after they were married. Ciro used to G-job giving piano lessons, as he was musical. If he would give you a note, he would write musical notes on it. I think he has been in Writing for some time now.

I think you have or had one of his talks on freeminds where he was explaining how the end was ever so close, back around the turn of the millennium. Must be even closer now, doncha know.

Tom
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SatanusRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
The wt never made it's own bible commentary. The 'si' book came the closest. Not good enough for the studious bethelites. No wt commentary is a glaring wt admission of it's lack of serious, solid bible dogma, and lack of real scholars. What w continuous new light, the changes would be never ending.

S
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Room 215Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Here are some of my recollections of Bethel, circa 1966-67:

In an earlier post, I mentioned a recent trip to a local Assembly Hall to catch up on the latest in JW rhetoric -- which incidentally sounds pretty much like it always has.

While being regaled with exhortations to elevate the importance of meeting attendance to the status of that approaching a patient on life support, I couldn't help but chuckle as how so many -- not all, mind you, but many Bethelites during my tenure there in the late sixties, honed their skill at ducking meetings to the level of fine art.

Because it was policy that work assignments took precedence over all other obligations including and especially meetings and field service, many would find some pretext to stay back and piddle away at their desk or workbench. This was particularly true of the stafers assigned to the maintenance of the Bethel home.

For those assigned to weekend reception duty at 124 Columbia Heights, the building in which most of the higher-ups live, their first order of business on Sunday mornings was to go to the Hotel St. George newstand and pick up a bunch of Sunday New York Times, to deliver to the doors of bigshots like Knorr, Suiter, Couch, et al. Because these fellows so frequently lazed about the home, sleeping in, rummaging around the kitchen, etc, in casual clothes, we dubbed gthem ``the Ban-Lon'' brigade in reference to the polo shirts they favored on such occasion.

Of course, none of this inhibited them in the least from intoning solemnly on the vital importance of regularity in meetings and service whenever they took to the podium.

Or take the plight of anyone assigned to work on a project the Society deemed a top priority, such as the Watchtower Farm construction when I was there.

When ordered to shape up to move up to the farm for the job, we were laughed at when asked about bringing along ``nice'' clothes for meetings and service. In short, all we encountered was wall-to-wall work, often through the weekends and onto the the following week, and absolutely no contact with the local congregation. About the only meetings we attended were an hour's family Watchtower study on Monday, which we attended in overalls or jeans.

For such jobs, the Society would often call in to Bethel any special pioneer or circuit overseer who had specialized construction skillls. You should have seen the looks on their faces when their ovcerseers told them they wouldn't be excused from work just to go to a meeting or out in field service! (Wesley Benner, the CO who hounded Ray Franz, was one such guy). Many of these types proved to be as naive as the newest new person when it came to believing the Society's rhetoric about the sanctity of meetings and service.

This is getting long, so I'll limit myself to two last reflections, real quick. You servants, remember you we're urged to be reliable? One time when assigned to pick strawberries at Mountain Farm on a Tuesday, it got late and we were not finished. We were sent back to pick after dinner by the headlights of several pickup trucks. When I requested to make a phone call to the book study to tell them I wouldn't show up to conduct, I was told to forget it.

At the assembly, the dubs were urged never to submit to a boss's orders to overcharge or cheat in any way. I couldn't help but think that in almost 40 years of full time work, the only one who asked me to do something dishonest was my Bethel overseer (i.e. to hide several gallons of paint thinner which were over the allowed limit as a city inspectore was one his way to the shop). My roomate, who worked as a plumber, was once assigned as a lookout while others finished unlicensed plumbing work in the Greenpoint Avenue Assembly Hall.

Of course, I still have many pleasant memories of the place, mostly of the comraderie and mutual commiserations of friends I made, many of whom turned out to be friends for life -- some still there, others out, loyal JW and ex-JW alike -- and for some of the dear, sincere older members of the family, now all gone.

But I must say that it's rare for anyone to go through the Bethel experience and come out with his/her idealism intact.

Thanks for listening (reading), whatever....

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Seeker4Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
G-jobs. I think it was Walden Chin - who eventually became a CO and DO - who used to G-job "special" Bibles for us when he was at Bethel. We'd get them bound with the Make Sure (later Reasoning) book, with a leather cover and our names embossed on the cover. I'm pretty sure Walden was doing this right at Bethel.

Walden was one of those cynical, wise-cracking Bethelites who would come to local congregations, drink the free liquor, pinch the single sisters on the bottom, joke about how the LAST thing anyone wanted to do at a get-together was sing Kingdom songs, yet went on to a "career" as a self-righteous traveling bro.

Wesley Benner was an old CO of mine. If I remember him correctly, he was kind of a small guy with a huge wife. I was not surprised to read in CofC that Wesley was the CO assigned to do in Ray Franz. A good company man.

S4
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