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wschroederRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!


Room 215 says: "Here are some of my recollections of Bethel, circa 1966-67: ... But I must say that it's rare for anyone to go through the Bethel experience and come out with his/her idealism intact."

I think that sums it up pretty well. I would say that nobody goes through Bethel with their initial idealism intact. Most of us never could have anticipated sharing absolutely every part of our daily life with 2000 others literally shoulder to shoulder. You knew the newboys right away as they spoke of righteousness and smiled a lot.

Only George Ganges and Karl Klein were able to maintain idealism for all their years of service... and both were totally retarded.
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cathykRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

A comment and a question:

My roomate, who worked as a plumber, was once assigned as a lookout while others finished unlicensed plumbing work in the Greenpoint Avenue Assembly Hall.

In NYC, where the unions rule with an iron fist, this isn't uncommon if a job needs to be done quickly and with a minimum of personnel.  If the union found out, though, there could be broken bones ...

Only George Ganges and Karl Klein were able to maintain idealism for all their years of service... and both were totally retarded.

My question is:  Which members of the Governing Body actually went out in field service back then?  I guess that Knorr probably didn't, nor Franz?

Cathy

oldlighthousebooks.blogspot.com

 

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james_woodsRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Very interesting question, Cathy.

We did ask old Albert Schroeder if he went d to d, and he smugly replied that he had a "special territory" there in Pittsburgh PA where the old servant's school was.

I think it actually consisted of a couple of little old ladies that would let him inside and he claimed to be doing a "bible study" with them.  Probably they were lonely and just wanted somebody to talk to.

Someone posted here that after he had the last stroke as was practically without motion or thought, they used to pin a Watchtower to his jacket front and wheel him down to the street in front of the WT offices so he could "count time".  Pathetic.

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biff mcflyRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Hey randy,

I knew the second guy from the right in the photo of the press erectors...don becker..he was my floor overseer. always liked Don, had a great sense of humor.

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GamalielRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Cathy, you had a question about which GB members went out in service:

I don't think any of us can speak for anyone else. I attended the Brooklyn Heights Congregation every Tue & every Thu and many Sundays (unofficially) as preparation for my assigned congregation in the Bronx (Wed, Fri, and Sun pm). I hardly ever missed a meeting in either congregation (except B.H. on Sunday am), mostly because I had some very good friends in the Brooklyn Heights Congregation (not just Bethelites) that I also spent time with on weekends.

About 5 GB members, maybe more, attended the B.H. Cong., and they were sometimes there, but never regularly. We would just assume they were busy on some important Society matters. The B.H. Cong was also overloaded with other Bethel elders, some "heavies". There were a few Bethel elders (e.g, Bro Malone) who were very active in the congregation, including regular field service, conducting TMS, the Book Study, etc. But no GB member had any regular assignment like that. It was not expected that you would see them but once every few weeks at best, and ONLY for the Thursday meetings (TMS/Svc Mtg). No Book Study attendance, and on weekends, it was even more rare, and you would assume that they had been invited to give a talk somewhere else in the world. I know for a fact that this assumption was false in some cases, but it was obviously true a lot of the time, too.

It's not directly related, but I went in door-to-door service with Fred Rusk (Writing Dept), and he admitted to me that he was a bit rusty and that I should take every door. I assumed he was just there to test if I gave out apostate literature when someone appeared interested. But whenever he did chime in, he really did sound a bit rusty.

Greg
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wschroederRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
cathy says: "In NYC, where the unions rule with an iron fist, this isn't uncommon if a job needs to be done quickly and with a minimum of personnel. If the union found out, though, there could be broken bones ..."

You're quite mistaken, in NYC large corporations and big money run this city with the iron fist, ...always have... always will... Even so, the unions and their skilled workers exist here through a lot of hard work and battles. Union projects are far more productive and safer, than non-union jobs, besides being inspected properly by licensed authorities.

I do not understand the negative views of unions... which essentially are workers who collectively negotiate and vote for a living wage.... The audacity of democracy.

Imagine.... the WTS paying a fair wage, providing adequate healthcare/insurance, or any other type of compensation if you get old, you know the things unions try to get for workers.

You might consider these forums of exJW's as a collective group a union with a repressive former boss. I wonder who's complaining about unions now?

In fact, there were some negotiations that went on between the trade unions here and the WTS when the 25 CH construction was being done. I got to learn a little more firsthand when I became a member of the IBEW construction division in 1983, and one of the union officials that signed me up learned about my being a JW at WT during the past 4 years. He told me about some of the negotiations and concessions made on labor for that construction project. I also got some more questions about WT operations including the factory.
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cathykRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Since so many of you were involved in NYC congregations, I have a few questions of personal interest:

1) One of the families around the block from me in Woodhaven were Witnesses.  The father was an elder in the Kingdom Hall near Aqueduct Racetrack in the 1970s.  I believe the family was originally from Pennsylvania.  I can't remember the last name, but I think it began with an "S"; I have a vague recollection of it being similar to "Siebert", as in Gertrude Siebert, but I've probably misremembered it.  Anyhow, they had two kids around my age:  Kirk and Renee.  They were all REALLY tall, the father well over 6 ft., and the mother not far behind.  The kids both grew up to be tall as well.

2) I also knew the Leask family, who attended the same KH.  I went to parochial school with Susie Leask until the family converted during the big run-up to 1975.  I often wonder if they stayed in after that.  I understood that not all the kids (and there were at least 5 of them) were thrilled with joining the JWs, but they didn't have much of a choice.

Anyone ever meet these people?  They were pretty nice folks.

Cathy

oldlighthousebooks.blogspot.com

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cathykRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
cathy says: "In NYC, where the unions rule with an iron fist, this isn't uncommon if a job needs to be done quickly and with a minimum of personnel. If the union found out, though, there could be broken bones ..."

You're quite mistaken, in NYC large corporations and big money run this city with the iron fist, ...always have... always will... Even so, the unions and their skilled workers exist here through a lot of hard work and battles. Union projects are far more productive and safer, than non-union jobs, besides being inspected properly by licensed authorities.

I do not understand the negative views of unions... which essentially are workers who collectively negotiate and vote for a living wage.... The audacity of democracy.
I am by and large pro-union, when they do what they're supposed to do.  I belonged to the AFT myself, and was grateful for the collective bargaining process. 
 
On the other hand, I saw all sorts of abuses done in the name of union rules while I was a teacher -- not least of which was the protection of incompetents.  As for the physical violence end of things, corporations are not alone in employing goons.  I have it on the authority of my brother, who personally knew people who had run afoul of the unions.  There were broken bones involved -- I wasn't using hyperbole.
 
Growing up in NYC, there was more than a hint of some unions (not all, mind you) being run by organized crime.  It was worse in some than in others.  For example, I would guess that the printers' union, which my father-in-law belonged to, was relatively free of that sort of thing.  On the other hand the Teamsters were pretty corrupt back in the 1970s.

I do know that the WTS used to drive the unions nuts  because they could skirt the system.  The WTS does not have any sense of what is due to a worker.  If they did, they would do better at arranging financial security for their Bethel staff, among other things.
 
Cathy
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ElivelethRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
G-jobs. I think it was Walden Chin - who eventually became a CO and DO - who used to G-job "special" Bibles for us when he was at Bethel. We'd get them bound with the Make Sure (later Reasoning) book, with a leather cover and our names embossed on the cover. I'm pretty sure Walden was doing this right at Bethel.

I have one of those.  Joe saw someone with one like it and had them bound for all our family.  I don't have much WT literature left.  We sold it all to a place where they sell

old WT stuff.  I believe we got $400 for all of it. WT volumes back to 1948.  I wish we had kept it.  The old books are going for big bucks on Ebay. hee hee

I wanted to share a couple of photos with you.  Some of you knew Fred and Maggie Maes.  I have a picture of them just after they were married and pioneering in San Francisco.  Also one of Fred at Bethel.

I am also including one of Fred's wife who he married in 1977 after Maggie left. There is also one of me at the Bethel Library (not sure which one) and Joe in front of the Factory.  Fred died in 1998, but he had fond memories of some of you guys at Bethel.  He had a few stories about Brother Knorr too.  He terrified Fred when he first got to Bethel.  He said he was very harsh and embarrassed Fred many times. 

Maybe one of these days I will share some of Fred's cartoons.  He went on to be a cartoonist in the real world and did several including a column for a short while for the Mobile Press-Tribune.  He was a great guy with a real sense of humor.  We miss him so much.  Joe says he is cartooning for the angels. hee hee

Love you guys so much.  Even though I never went to Bethel except for a couple of visits, I have a real heart connection to you esp. because of Fred.  The first time we went to Bethel we stayed at a room in one of the WT bldgs.  The second time we stayed in the Bossert before they redid it. What a dump!  My daughters had friends in Fullerton whose brother went to Bethel in the 80s. I think his name was Grant Garcia. 

I love this thread.  I hope it just keeps going and we can hear more about the Bethel boys exploits.  We had a tape from Paul Blizard when we first got out.  Now that guy has some Bethel experiences!  hee hee

Thanks so much.

Love and hugs,

Veltaaltaltaltaltalt

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ElivelethRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

I tried to put up som pictures.

JK tried to tell me how, but I guess I am a slow learner.  Sorry they did not come up.

Velta

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NewYork44MRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Someone posted here that after he had the last stroke as was practically without motion or thought, they used to pin a Watchtower to his jacket front and wheel him down to the street in front of the WT offices so he could "count time".  Pathetic.

That was me. I lived in Brooklyn Heights for six years. Not as a bethelite, but as a resident. I purchased a co-op in a building once owned by the society. At the time I lived with my wife (now ex) and was in the final throughs of my fade. I attended occasionally at the Brooklyn Heights hall.

In my years there I got to know a few within the congregation. However, I found Brooklyn Heights to be the most unfriendly congregation I have ever attended.

I would occasonally see some of the gb, usually with others. They can't push a wheelchair by themselves. I would usually stop and talk with them. Nothing controversial, usually the weather or if I knew them from the past just friendly stuff.

I was always embarassed form Schroeder when I would see him with his wife in front of the Towers totally out of it with a Wt pinned to his jacket.

 

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fjtothRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

I remember Fred Maes too. After leaving JWs, I visited Fred and Jeanne in Alabama. I remember Fred as a great and wonderful person -- Jeanne too -- as well as the posters in this thread who I remember from my Bethel days. Fred and Jeanne's company was called "Maes Creative Concepts." I think it's still in operation but possibly with a new name.

Some of the following books by Fred Maes are still available from Barnes & Noble and other sources.

   The Frustrated Cartoonist's Handbook
   Nobody Can Kick You unless You Bend over : A Book about People, Problems, and Personal Pride
   Profound Thoughts from the World's Deepest Thinkers
   Taking the Guilt and Fear out of Faith


Though he wasn't the author, Fred drew the illustrations for
   Quantum Retirement : Waltzing in Cosmic Babylon

He also produced a VHS called
   Learning to Cartoon with Fred Maes

Or is this another cartoonist with the same name?

Velta, I sure hope you can post some of those pictures.  

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ElivelethRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Yes, it is the same Fred Maes.  I think God broke the mold when he made him.

I don't know of any other. hee hee

I would love to post the photos.  If someone can tell me how.

I have them on a MySpace as well as my personal pictures, but

I just can't seem to get the gist of how to post them to JWD. 

HELP!

Velta

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fjtothRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate book

Hi Eliveleth,

If you have them on MySpace, it will be very easy to post them here. Just go to MySpace and click on the pictures (one at a time), and then come here to JWD and paste them. It might not work, though, if you're not using Internet Explorer. In that case, maybe someone else has a suggestion.

Frank

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ElivelethRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Maybe I did it this time. Let me see.  If they show up, I will edit them. Woo Hoo!!!  I did it!  Now there will be no

stopping me. LOL

FredandJeanneatKennethAvenue.jpg Fred and Jeanne Maes c.1978 image by ElivelethFredatBethel.jpg Fred Maes at Bethel image by ElivelethMaggieandFred1952.jpg Maggie and Fred 1952 in SF, CA image by ElivelethCynthiaandRayFranz.jpg Cynthia and Ray c.1980 image by Eliveleth

Fred and Jeanne 1978        Fred at Bethel 1975?        Maggie and Fred 1952         Cynthia and Ray Franz c. 1980

                                                                              Pioneering in SF, CA           When Ray came to dedicate our Assembly Hall in Yuba City, CA

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fjtothRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Eliveleth,

Many thanks! It's hard to accept that Fred's gone from us. I hope the pix keep coming.

Frank

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Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Eliveleth,

It is so nice to see these pictures of Fred. He served with my dad, Bill Cabeen, in the Spanish Circuit work in the early 1970s (he was District Overseer), then he and Maggie came to Brooklyn Bethel. Fred took me under his wing, and gave me lots of good advice about Bethel and spiritual matters, and Maggie helped me sort out my relationships with the sisters in my congregation.

Fred and I spent lots of time together after Maggie left. Then Fred left and later married Jeanne. I believe Ray and Cynthia introduced them. We visited the Virgin Islands with Fred and Jeanne and Ray and Cynthia in the late 1970s. What a lot of laughs that trip was!

When they moved to Mobile, Gloria and I and the boys went to visit them there. Then, a few years later, when Fred was so sick, I went back and spent a few days with them. I returned home only a day or two before Fred died. I was so glad I was able to talk to him, play the guitar and sing Tex-Mex songs for him, take him for a ride around in the car and even laugh a little.

Thanks so much for reminding me of a dear friend whom I miss very much.

Tom
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fjtothRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Tom,

It's been a joy to read your posts in this thread for the past month, and those of Randy and others too. What great memories have been revived!

Since the topic includes "Kline," I'll share a little something about him.

I was the "office supervisor" at Gilead when Karl Klein decided that he wanted a personal pioneer friend of his to get my job. I had no idea what was going on behind the scenes until Ulysses Glass sat me down and said the governing body was making some changes in the school and that my job would be affected. He seemed disappointed that he wasn't given more of a say about the changes. Up until then, my wife and I had been helping him for several years with Gilead graduation activity, and I thought maybe they had in mind giving me more to do in that area, putting me with Drew Wasko and Bob Jankowski. But it looked like my days of correcting student papers and doing other things in and for the classes were coming to an end. The new man Karl had in mind for my job had just arrived at Bethel that week, and right from the start they had me training him to take over my job. Some days later I met Leo Greenlees in the hallway, and he asked me how things were going. When I told him I was puzzled about some things that were going on in the office, he asked me a few times, "Are you sure no one told you why a change is being made?" He seemed disappointed that I was uninformed, and he ended our discussion. Then he made a dash down the hallway. Later that day and for the next several days, Karl kept showing up in our office and each time found something critical to say about my work. He was acting like a real screwball. Finally, I got upset and reported him to Carey Barber on the Personnel Committee. Among other things, Barber said "You're not the only one they're kicking around, Frank. Here I am on the governing body, and they don't think my text comments at the breakfast table are good enough. They want to take me off the schedule altogether. And, instead of sending me out to speak at special assemblies, they're picking these young green-behind-the-ears whippersnappers in the Service Department."

Well, weeks went by and nothing changed. I was handing over more and more stuff to the new man, and I had very little to do. My wife Dianne worked with Sister C (who is still there and who was a good friend of Grant and Edith Suiter), and Dianne confided to her that this situation was getting me down. Sister C came to me and said, "Frank, if you really want to get something done about Karl, the one you should talk to is Grant Suiter. He's the one with the real power around here." So I went to Suiter, and he was very cordial. He asked me, "What seems to be the trouble?," and he inquired and probed for about 45 minutes, getting me to repeat the answers to some questions. For example, "Would you mind telling me again what Brother Klein told you?" and "So your saying Brother Barber told you such-and-such?" I should have known by the sort of questioning that Grant wasn't really interested in helping me with my problem. His main concern was to get some goods on other members of the GB.

Well, the next two days the GB members all seemed to have disappeared. They didn't show up at meals and we didn't see them anywhere in the halls.

Finally, when they reappeared, I was walking by Carey's office and said good morning. He called to me and asked me to come in and sit down. I'll never forget his next words: "Frank, how could you? How could you? The conversation we had was private -- between you and me alone -- but you went and told Brother Suiter everything I told you. How could you, Frank? Do you realize that for the past two days I've been raked over the coals again and again by nearly every member of the governing body? You put me through the worst experience of my life!"

I really felt bad about what I had done to the old man and for the way things were turning out. I apologized and went to my job -- what was left of it -- in the Gilead Office. That evening I was climbing the stairs in the 124 building and met Karl on the 8th floor. He was coming down and I was going up, and we met at the door to the library. Karl said in a very drawn-out and bitter tone, "So, you told the governing body that I've been harassing you!" I said, "Maybe we should talk about it, Brother Klein." He replied, "There is NOTHING to talk about," and he opened the door to the library and slammed it behind him right in my face. I decided not to follow him, but I'm sure that others in the library must have jumped a mile when the door slammed. While I continued to work there, Karl never came into the Gilead Office again. The situation being what it was, I told Leo that I wanted a job change, and in a few weeks I was transferred back to the Shipping Department where I had been before. Thus ended my "career" in the Gilead Office.

Frank

PS: Here's a picture of the infamous Karl Klein copied from Randy's website:

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