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Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate book


For Jeff Schwehm regarding your post on page 2 of this thread:

Regarding that couple that had a Down's Syndrome child... As little respect as I had for Karl Klein, I am amazed that he told that story as an example of God punishing someone for their actions. I guess that says something about how he thought about God.

The couple in question was Colin Lake and Maggie Maes. Maggie and Colin got infatuated with each other and ran off together, at almost exactly the time that the Eagles song "Lyin' Eyes" was released, I think around 1975. I remember listening to the song and thinking about them. What they did scandalized Bethel, and that was not easy to do.

Colin was in Dispatch, and Maggie was the wife of one of my dearest friends, Fred Maes, a former Spanish Circuit and District Overseer. Colin's wife Dorothy was a good woman. (At the time, she looked very much like Dustin Hoffman as "Tootsie") She was more than an acquaintance, but not really a close friend.

Fred later left Bethel, remarried, went back into the District work for a few years, then dropped out of the org. He had a pretty good life. He was never df'd, to my knowledge. He died of cancer about ten years ago, in December, 1998, I think. I spent a few days down there with him just before he died.

I remember being so sad, both for Colin and Maggie and for their mates, Fred and Dorothy, all of whom I knew pretty well. I believe that Maggie wanted a child so badly, but the end just wouldn't come and her biological clock was ticking away... She must have been in her mid-forties when their baby was born. Dorothy was still at Bethel when we left. I wish them all peace and God's blessing.

A little side note about Karl Klein. One day I was sitting in Dan Sydlik's office. We were shooting the bull as we did almost every day. Suddenly the door burst open and Karl Klein was at the door. He was so excited, he didn't even look to see if there was anyone else there in the office. When he opened the door, I was sort of hidden behind it, because Karl didn't come right in, but stood there in the doorway, gleefully announcing his big news: "I've made it, Dan!" he said. "I'm finally at the top of the heap! I'm the Chairman of the Governing Body! Can you imagine!?!" Dan looked at him as he was speaking, then he sort of shrank a bit in his chair, then he looked at me, then back at Karl. Karl stopped in mid-sentence. He said "Oh, I didn't know anyone was here." I excused myself and left, leaving him to exult over his new job (which he only held for a year, as the chairmanship rotated). Dan and I never discussed it. I think Dan was embarrassed for Karl. But I don't think Karl was embarrassed for himself.

Tom
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wschroederRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Hi Tom,

Good to see you're still in the neighborhood. Last time we met was about 10 years ago at Greg's in Long Island.

The Wed night sauna ritual was a regular event for a long time, but I don't read much of anything about it by ex-Bethelites. I also went once, but never got inside because of the packed house, inside and out. I waited for a little while and never tried again. I did get to enjoy the sauna at better hours and would sleep like a baby afterwards.

Thanks for the info and correction about Nestor and Toni.

I believe Chris and Norma are still in Queens or LI. I think Greg stays in touch.

I spoke to your good friend Carl Johnson just a couple days ago. I say that because he has never failed to bring up your name if we discuss Bethel or JW's.

Carl and I played in a Bethel band together, and even performed the music for the Family Night production when they did "Oklahoma" as a template for the "Construction and Home Crew Must Be Friends" and other parodies of the stage play. It was quite fun. I have a picture of us to the side of the stage. I will have to dig it out and post a copy.

Another interesting story can be told about this event which I will save for later. It involves wild music, and a flipped story about the history of the Squibb buildings.

Cheers,
Warren
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CunningManRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Tom,

Is the Freddy in your sauna story Freddy Franz? If so, that is the most disturbing story I've yet read. I've only seen the old guy in pictures, but the image of him naked in a towel, moaning for more steam is more than I can bear.

As for Karl Klein, it never ceases to amaze me that this guy made it onto the governing body.

IP: 4gaPFpeKsv7j1MnR by CunningMan: Correct spelling
MulanRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
very cool reading about R. Lengtat, a man who helped us through our excruciating exit..............long, slow successful fade.  So glad he moved to the Seattle area.
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Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate book
Yup, it was Freddy Franz all right. And you are right to be disturbed by those images. :-)

I was amazed myself that Klein made it on the GB. I guess technically he met all the requirements, but his articles were ridiculous. So while Ray Franz ("anointed") and Ed Dunlap ("other sheep") were assigned (by Karl Adams, Writing Department Overseer and also "other sheep") to write study articles and study books, Karl was assigned to write articles for Awake about things like dung beetles and banana trees. Other writers told me that it used to burn him up with envy. So he played a key role in the 1980 "Franz/Dunlap" incident, thus eliminating his rivals. Finally, he got to write some "outstanding" Watchtower study articles. My favorite was his classic about "tacking into the wind." In that article, he destroyed any credibility the WTS may have had by revealing their secret: that no one at WT HQ had divine direction, nor any clue as to what they were talking about; that they were all just feeling their way along like blind mice looking for their tails. Or is it "the blind leading the blind?" That was adapted from one of his service talks. (I'll bet Karl Adams was ready to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge when that one got published.) Yes, Karl was one of a kind, a true "Watchtower man."

Tom
IP: k2gw4VvTurkmvVG3
MaryRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Regarding that couple that had a Down's Syndrome child... As little respect as I had for Karl Klein, I am amazed that he told that story as an example of God punishing someone for their actions. I guess that says something about how he thought about God.

This is a prime example that shows how little the leadership of the Witnesses know about anything biological, mental, or psychological problems.  It's a medical fact that if a woman has their first child past the age of 40, the chances of it having Down Syndrome increases.  It's not a punishment from God.

This reminds me of a story I recently heard about an elder who wanted to ban a sister from entering the Kingdom Hall because they thought she was posessed by demunz.  She would spit on people, swear and yell crazy things out whenever she entered the KH.  I suggested that it was far more likely that she had Tourette's Syndrome because those are all the symptoms and instead of banning her for 'demon posession', maybe someone should take her to the doctors to get some medication that would help.

You'd think that the Awake! magazines which are equal to a 4 year college degree, would have told them that.

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Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate book
Hey Warren,

I sent an email to Christ and Norma about a year ago, but got no reply. Maybe I have an old email address.

I still have the pictures from that get together at Greg's. I think I brought my son, Matt, who was going to be a senior in high school at the time. He is now married and expecting our first grandchild, a little boy in October. I will send you a PM with my phone number. Give me a call when you get a chance.

How well I remember Carl Johnson! Give him my best regards and my phone number. I would love to hear from him also.

This thread has brought so many funny stories to my head. So many crazy things happened while I was there, and I met so many wonderful people. I worked hard, but I had fun, too, and laughed my head off so many times. I had a ball with the Pressroom guys when I was Overseer there. Guys like Randy Watters actually ran the Pressroom (in the sense of doing actual work), once we got the thing running well. After that, it was mostly my job to take the heat when the guys did something to get unfavorable notice from the Factory Committee.

I learned a lot at Bethel, too. Maybe not what I (or my family) expected I would learn, but it turned out to be very useful in the long run.

Tom
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minimusRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Tom, when you sent the email to christ, didya get a response?

I LOVE THIS THREAD!!! THIS IS THE TYPE OF INSIDE INFO YOU CAN ONLY GET HERE!!!

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james_woodsRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

I was not going to be the first to mention the legend of Freddy and the sauna.

It had been told to me by a good friend as a matter of warning long before I ventured up north.

 

Very, very strange.  And many have wondered about all the implications.

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Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate book
No, but Mary says Hi!

Better make that Chris! Ha Ha. You guys are brutal! No slack! Where did you learn this...oh never mind. I know...

Tom
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kurtbethelRe: Re: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate
"My favorite was his classic about "tacking into the wind." In that article, he destroyed any credibility the WTS may have had by revealing their secret: that no one at WT HQ had divine direction, nor any clue as to what they were talking about; that they were all just feeling their way along like blind mice looking for their tails. Or is it "the blind leading the blind?" That was adapted from one of his service talks."

I was amazed when I read that story. It brought to mind Ephesians 4:14 which says "That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;"

I was astonished, it was if they tipped their hand in that story.

Great thread here. It really puts a human face on the whole experience for me.
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james_woodsRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

One of the silliest parts of "tacking into the wind" was that full-page Watchtower illustration (beautifully engraved, BTW) of a square-rigged clipper ship bearing down at about 20 knots in full sail.

This was "tacking into the wind"?  No, that was running before the wind in full sail.

Very little understanding of how a rig and keel sailboat works when working against the wind.

IP: NKK3aqBxSAZs9wa4
TheListenerRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Now all we need is a current long time Bethelite to defect and bring copies of the Governing Body meeting minutes with him.
IP: yK9RR6IrbADwzkTP
Seeker4Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Tom and others,

Were you ever in a Brooklyn congregation with Kathleen Campbell? English speaking single sister? She was close friends with Leo Greenlees.

Kathleen retired to Vermont to be near her daughter, and that's how we got to know Greenlees, when he came up to visit.

S4
IP: NC58N6Kur91OD8GK
ChampionRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Warren..Did Donna Fried stay a JW..I knew her, she used to hang out with one of my brothers.
IP: 0da4lgPnuZTwXK21
DogpatchRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

cab sez...

So while Ray Franz ("anointed") and Ed Dunlap ("other sheep") were assigned (by Karl Adams, Writing Department Overseer and also "other sheep") to write study articles and study books, Karl was assigned to write articles for Awake about things like dung beetles and banana trees. Other writers told me that it used to burn him up with envy. So he played a key role in the 1980 "Franz/Dunlap" incident, thus eliminating his rivals. Finally, he got to write some "outstanding" Watchtower study articles. My favorite was his classic about "tacking into the wind." In that article, he destroyed any credibility the WTS may have had by revealing their secret: that no one at WT HQ had divine direction, nor any clue as to what they were talking about; that they were all just feeling their way along like blind mice looking for their tails. Or is it "the blind leading the blind?" That was adapted from one of his service talks. (I'll bet Karl Adams was ready to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge when that one got published.) Yes, Karl was one of a kind, a true "Watchtower man."

This is what rocks the boat of every JW, to hear stories like this. From then on, you must make a choice: feed the dissonance and keep fooling yourself, or stop the bus! I've got to get off. Loonies!! Bethel cured me of the Watchtower. Once you lose all respect for these old men in diapers, it's over for any serious religious experience. You are simply remaining in a stupid, poorly run corporate bureaucracy with no imagination and no hope. There is life outside the WT, folks!

Randy

IP: HtcEwqUI1GKh65WV
Awakened at GileadRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Randy: Great thread... this has brought up many memories... even though I was at Bethel from 89 to 92...

I remember the Saunascapades... a good friend of mine would go religiously every week (Luis Navarro... anyone know him?) and would tell me stories about sitting in the sauna naked with Freddy and Karl Klein too.

Comment for Mary: (adding to what others have said)

I was raised by an "anointed" brother. He got his publications just like the rest of us... no special communication there. I asked him about it recently. He said that he was of the domestics, so the GB does the feeding... although sometimes he has thought of some new idea, and, lo and behold, some time later, it gets published! (He must believe that the FDS has some sort of collective consciousness, then, lol)

Comment for Tom:



One of the big surprises for me at Bethel was to find out that the vast majority of the material in the publications, including study articles in the Watchtower, study books and any other thing that could possibly be construed by JWs as "New Light" is written, published and enforced by "other sheep". The only notable exception besides Ray Franz was Freddie Franz, and you could always detect his stuff a mile away because its style is what one would expect from an author who was given to fantasy fiction.

...

In the mid-70, when I was at Bethel, my friend Dan Sydlik told me that the other sheep of John 10 were the Gentiles. That made so much sense to me, and it fit so well with the actual state of affairs, that I rejected the two-class fiction then and there, even when I thought that the WTS was still God's organization.

Tom

I realized the same things when I went through Gilead. As I sat through a propaganda talk by Carey Barber (who in his late 90's could barely even think) and who just read off his notes, I came to the same conclusion. The talk was called "The 1900 Year Old FDS", and I was unsatisfied with the description, which didn't match reality. I realized from my Gilead stay that almost everyone in writing was of the OS... so how could they say that the FDS feeds everyone else? The GB fulfills most of what they apply to the FDS class... this is when I started waking up in Gilead.

When we got top the book of John and we reviewed the meaning, I discovered that Christendom teaches that teh OS are the Gentiles. This made so much sense to me that I couldn't get it out of my mind. Additionally, the idea of 2 classes of Christians is not taught in the Bible... I could see this from reading the Bible twice in 8 months...

Now I'm upset that good ole Dan Sydlik didn't believe in the OS doctrine either... what a hypocrite for going along with the fake religious system all those years until he died.

A@G

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MaryRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Between this thread and ISoCF, I'm starting to think that Karl Klein was either manic depressive, or had borderline personality disorder or maybe a combination of the two.......God----he really sounds like he was mentally unstable.

Tom asked: Was that in Toronto that your parents were married by Leo? He looks so young, but I recognize the face.

Yep.....I hadn't realized that Greenlees was a Canuck.

IP: PkD0N4dv2Yzi6Erf by Mary: Correct formatting
Awakened at GileadRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Mary: Between this thread and ISoCF, I'm starting to think that Karl Klein was either manic depressive, or had borderline personality disorder or maybe a combination of the two.......God----he really sounds like he was mentally unstable.

He did have a nervous breakdown....  that's in his published story...

Interesting Excerpts: (I've never forgoten these quotes)

***w8410/1p.24‘JehovahHasDealtRewardinglyWithMe’***

Once, due to some misunderstanding, it was wrongly reported to Brother Rutherford that I had made a very critical remark about him. However, rather than becoming indignant, he remarked: "Well, Karl talks a lot, and he says things he doesn’t mean."...

Due to inherited weaknesses and my impulsive nature, my life has had its share of trials and tribulations, including a nervous breakdown after I had been at Bethel for nine years. At that time, Psalm 103 truly was comforting to me, as well as Paul’s words at Romans 7:15-25. It might be added that I have had more than my share of mishaps, such as a broken kneecap, fractured vertebrae, and so forth. Both my own failings and those of others have kept my life from being all "smooth sailing." But with Jehovah’s help I have come to appreciate the fact that ‘if he permits it, I can take it,’ as indicated at 1 Corinthians 10:13. Also, ‘the less I live, the more I can give.’ Among other lessons I have had to learn is the need to cultivate "a waiting attitude for the God of my salvation," and to be willing to conduct myself as "a lesser one."—Micah 7:7; Luke 9:48....

Jehovah has kept me from making very serious mistakes. He has done this through his angels, his providence and the help provided not only by mature brothers but also by ever so many fine Christian "Abigails." It may be added that I am thankful to Jehovah that when I was spiritually weak the opportunity for yielding to temptation did not lie close at hand and that when it did I was spiritually strong enough not to yield. In other words, the inclination toward wrongdoing and the opportunity for it never coincided, for Jehovah knew that at heart I really wanted to keep doing the right thing. How grateful I am that errors are not what Jehovah watches!

BTW, I'm not in the same boat as Karl... the opportunity and the inclination always seemed to coincide, lol.

A@G

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jookbeardRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Tell me guys, how did/do they G/b members and Bethel elders/over sears etc let their hair down? Did they go to the movies, shoot some pool, watch the Giants?, have a kick around in Central Park ?
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